Do you believe the United States Federal Income Tax is a fair and just system of taxation?

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Key Point.
Larken Rose made it clear that he WAS~NOT ALLOWED to enter into evidence, his analysis of the Federal tax code, By the Judge in his trial, resulting in a biased and directed GUILTY verdict to the naive jury.

Jonathan R. Siegel is a Professor of Law at George Washington University Law School in Washington, DC. A graduate of Harvard College and Yale Law School, Professor Siegel clerked for the Chief Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C...........true to form with his background, VESTED INTEREST and Bias Tried to WEASEL as usual around the KEY POINT that Federal JUDGES have a VESTED interest in keeping the fraud going, and when confronted with the fact that LARKEN ROSE was not allowed to enter into evidence his tax code analysis...Mr. Siegel replied that he DID NOT KNOW what happened at LR's Trial Because HE WAS NOT THERE, Like the BIAS against the perceived TAX PROTESTER is any BIG secret in the federal courts.

And I say GIMME A BREAK Mr. Siegel.

Hi RH : You say "Don't put the blame on "our" government, put the blame upon the "Master of Confusion".

We have no one else to blame it on, but "government" , they write the legislation / laws.

When I say "government" , I mean the governing political party. Here in Canada as in the United States, there has only ever been two parties, to form "government".

Political parties are nothing more than private clubs, (vehicles) which the upper crust/ elite, use to take control of power.
The majority of the voting population are not card carrying members of any political party, less than 2% belong to parties, now that is not a democracy... it is an oligrachy.

Then this 2% put in place taxation laws, which we are led to believe are to set up and manage the public infrastructure. When in fact, these taxes are used to finance the private sectors.

Why should the working people be forced to pay taxes, that are used to finance the business sector?

After many years of study on this issue and by getting personally involved, with nothing to show but a year out of my life much like Mr. Rose, I have come to the conclusion that the whole issue boils down to control. It did not end by the wars of 1776 and 1812. The same "entity" ("they") that controlled then, control now, they just go by a different name. Don't put the blame on "our" government, put the blame upon the "Master of Confusion". The "good book" tells us that none of the wicked will understand but "only the wise". (Dan. 12:10)

It may be time to "sit on the sidelines" and watch what happens in the near future. Why "play" when we know that "they" will win the fight----but not the war?

RH (JD)

Taxation laws in Canada is nothing more than legalized extortion. We are forced to pay taxes and then the taxes are used to finance private business.

Right across Canada there is a move a foot to stop supporting political parties, because they are turning out to be the real enemy of the the working poor.

Political parties come to us for support, then once in power, they abuse the very people who voted for them. Political parties are used by big business and large law firms to high jack, what was once the people government.

We say do not support any political party with your time or your money.

The good citizens of the United States and Canada are being abused with these taxation extortion laws put in place by greedy political parties.

Take care

Wayne Coady
Nova scotia Canada

Larkin Rose is only one of the many sovereign citizens of the several States of the united States who are being coerced into paying tribute to the people of the national government when there is no Constitutional authority for those government people to demand that tribute. The funds that are stolen from these same sovereign citizens are obtained illegally, gained through theft, in my opinion. There is an organization know as the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship, around since 1984, that has consistently voiced the same general message as Mr. Rose and which has never, since day one, withheld any monies from its help (no W-4s) nor taken any Social Security deductions from their pay nor had anything at all to do with the functions of a "withholding agent" (e.g., gather information on the workers such as SS number, etc.) as a part of their daily operations. They also have a very simple and workable solution to the problem of the unlawful misapplication of the law that has made Mr. Rose's name so recognizable. For information on how the free, independent and sovereign citizens of the several States of the united States can regain their lost liberty with respect to the national income tax, go to www.save-a-patriot.org and see what they have to say. It's your freedom.

They have consumption taxes there too.

They were told the Income taxes they had would go away because of the consumption tax.

Guess what?

They did not.

I am sure that Congress can be trusted to keep their word on this one?

Right!

ORIGINALLY PENNED FOR THE APRIL 15, 1969 ISSUE OF "THE LIBERTARIAN"

FOUND AT:
http://www.mises.org/story/2550

April 15, that dread Income Tax day, is around again, and gives us a chance to ruminate on the nature of taxes and of the government itself.

The first great lesson to learn about taxation is that taxation is simply robbery. No more and no less. For what is "robbery"? Robbery is the taking of a man's property by the use of violence or the threat thereof, and therefore without the victim's consent. And yet what else is taxation?

Those who claim that taxation is, in some mystical sense, really "voluntary" should then have no qualms about getting rid of that vital feature of the law which says that failure to pay one's taxes is criminal and subject to appropriate penalty.

But does anyone seriously believe that if the payment of taxation were really made voluntary, say in the sense of contributing to the American Cancer Society, that any appreciable revenue would find itself into the coffers of government? Then why don't we try it as an experiment for a few years, or a few decades, and find out?

But if taxation is robbery, then it follows as the night the day that those people who engage in, and live off, robbery are a gang of thieves. Hence the government is a group of thieves, and deserves, morally, aesthetically, and philosophically, to be treated exactly as a group of less socially respectable ruffians would be treated.

This issue of The Libertarian is dedicated to that growing legion of Americans who are engaging in various forms of that one weapon, that one act of the public which our rulers fear the most: tax rebellion, the cutting off the funds by which the host public is sapped to maintain the parasitic ruling classes.

Here is a burning issue which could appeal to everyone, young and old, poor and wealthy, "working class" and middle class, regardless of race, color, or creed. Here is an issue which everyone understands, only too well. Taxation.

You people who advocate the "Fair Tax".... Since you obviously think that the government can't operate without an income tax or a replacement "fair tax", please explain how the government managed to operate just fine for over a hundred years WITHOUT an income tax. Look at the pie chart on the 1040 booklet. How much money does the government admit that it takes to make it operate?

Get educated and get real.... Dump the illegally applied income tax, the IRS, and the stupid idea of needing another tax!!!

BE

The Fair Tax dude is right ,the 16 amendment did not give any new taxing authority,the IRS is misapplying the laws as they are written!Allways has and allways will.

There are no federal "programs" that are constitutionally authorized. The federal government has a very few, strictly limited, functions and responsibilities delegated to it through the US Constitution. It doesn't matter how much a program "benefits" citizens, the federal govt is not there to provide "benefits," only certain services such as courts, military, coinage of money, etc., all of which are found in Section 8 of Article 1 of the US Constitution. These few services could be paid for by a small corporate income tax, which was actually the original object of the income tax laid by Congress in 1913.

The so-called "Fair Tax" is merely another tax which is contemplated to be laid unconstitutionally outside Congress' jurisdiction, and intended to continue to cover up the fraud of the debt-based fiat money scam perpetrated by the Federal Reserve and their co-conspiractors in Congress so they can continue to buy votes by funding "programs" that benefit special interests.

Don't be duped by the phony "Fair Tax" scam. Use your brain and read the Constitution.

Taxation is not theft; it is fair. It's purpose is two-fold: to pay salaries to elected officials who give full-time to government (no one should be expected to work for nothing); and to pay for government programs which benefit citizens. What is unfair is the method of taxation which leads to cheating and corruption. The Federal Income Tax is not fair and has obviously led to cheating and corruption that cannot be controlled. No amount of tweeking will ever collect billions of dollars owed by the underground or illegal aliens--only ordinary citizens pay income taxes. The only fair method of taxation is taxing spending, not income. When The FairTax (HR25/S25) is passed, all people will pay their fair share when they make purchases of new goods and services; the poor will pay the least because they buy the least; the rich will pay the most because they buy the most. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. And it doesn't take an IRS to collect it--they will be history. Gone, too, will be the millions spent on compliance costs each year. It's time to pass The FairTax!

I wish there was a "Hell No" box .... LOL

I bet that one would have most of the "No" votes in it

I don't know about your education, but I was consistently given firm evidence that stealing was wrong. If I haven't the right to hold you up at gunpoint to raise money for my childrens' education (or to build roads or anything else!), how can I delegate this non-existent power to something called a "Government"? Please explain how a just and peaceful society can exist if it denies the basics of morality at its very core? The only valid and legitimate interchange between people is consensual and voluntary! For a VERY thorough examination of this, see
www.freedomainradio.com

Adam Selene

So many today, even in libertarian circles argue in favor of the "fair" tax recently proposed by Congress. It is not argued by most that the IRS is unfair and unjust in its function. Those who argue this miss a greater point: The trouble with taxes is that they're never "just;" they redistribute wealth from the producers to the non-producers universally.

If you disagree with this assessment, think about something:

-Is an IRS agent a producer of wealth?
-Is a Congressman a producer of wealth?
-Is a welfare recipient a producer of wealth?

Of course, in all three cases any sensible person would answer, no, and in all three cases, the persons in question are all recipients of tax revenue.

Another group, however, might prove difficult to accept as part of the tax burden:

-Is a public school teacher a producer of wealth?
-Is a farmer who receives subsidies not to plant crops a producer of wealth?
-Is a construction worker on a government highway project a producer of wealth?
-Is the upstanding local sheriff or honest city cop a producer of wealth?
-Is a U.S. Marine a producer of wealth?

Most people would decry me as a villain for even asking the question of the above five, and even some of the stoutest conservatives will balk at my inclusion of the last three or four, arguing that they provide "invaluable services" and are part of the "backbone of America," but let's look at it from a purely financial perspective.

When acting in their described capacities, every one of the above individuals receives wealth he did not himself create.

-The public schoolteacher, no matter how many children learn to read, write or calculate, at the end of the day walks away with a portion of somebody else's money.
-The subsidized farmer, whether he milks his cows or leaves them waiting enjoys the fruits of another man's efforts.
-The highway worker might labor for the money he receives, but he has not created one iota of wealth in so doing, only received the benefits of wealth redistribution.
-The police officer who performs his duties with greatest care and shuns grafts is still a thief, picking the pockets of those he "protects and serves."
-The U.S. soldier, "defending" the nation against threats both real and imagined, in the truest sense has fewer scruples than the mercenary who renders a service to protect at a price without the slick veneer of "serving God and country."

In none of these circumstances is the money given in a voluntary exchange, instead extracted at the tip of a saber or muzzle of a gun. There is no virtue in theft and whether the willing participants in the theft or simply the beneficiaries of such crime there can be only one solution, restitution.

Whether it seems "fair" or not, the billionaire industrialist is entitled to seek the restoration of his stolen riches, even if it means sacrificing the "paltry wages" of any of those listed above. He earned his money through shrewd investment, planning and undertaking risks. The others did none of this and made no agreement with him to exchange their work for his money. They were not in his employ, try how they might to justify the societal "need" for their positions.

The real solution, then, is to end welfare, both corporate and personal. Taxes are the elan vital of a government, thus it is both fair and just to stop the beating heart of the beast by opening its veins and ending the involuntary circulation of funds from those who produce to those who do not. Even if this means the dislocation of millions of workers within the public sector, the resulting private sector jobs would more than exceed both the quantity and quality of those lost.

Whether or not the current system is legal is besides the point. The point is we need to replace it. Simply prooving that it's illegal won't fix it, IMHO. It can't be fixed overnight in one step, by (for example) everyone refusing to pay their income taxes. It HAS to be fixed in steps, gradually, IMHO.
Step 1: Show the outrageous cost of the federal government on each and every retail sales receipt. This will burn into even the simplist person's mind how bad the problem has gotten.
Step 2: Easy, once the FairTax.org does Step 1 above.

The current income tax, fraudulently enacted by the fraudulently ratified 16th amendment, is administered by what is arguably the most powerful agency in the United States of America. The Internal Revenue Service siezes homes, bank accounts, businesses, paychecks, and other real and personal property with nothing more than a form letter. No court hearing, no judge. No other government agency, private individual or business has this power. The IRS does not truly have this power either, but its ability to intimidate federal judges, senators, and even governors allow it to ignore the U.S. Constitution at will.

The only solution is the repeal of the 16th Amendment and ratification and enactment of the FairTax Bill (HR25 and S25).

ENACT THE FAIRTAX: REPEAL THE 16th AMENDMENT

There are things in our lives that are beyond repair and need to be replaced. The U.N. is one of those. The tax system is another.

The only solution I've found is the FairTax. Some facts about the FairTax:

• No more IRS! No more filing income tax returns!
• Take your entire paycheck home.
• Revenue neutral - everything funded today is still funded.
• No tax on the poor - a prebate pays any tax up to the poverty level.
• Companies that moved operations overseas due to our heinous tax laws will be incented to move back.
• All the money wasted trying to navigate around tens of thousands of pages of tax laws is saved.
• April 15th is just another Spring day.

Do yourself and your children a favor and support the FairTax (H.R.25). Dozens of Congressmen already do. Tell yours that you want the FairTax!

It is good that the Question being POLLED, specifies INCOME (tax), and not just TAX.

Larkin Rose's Evidence is UNDENIABLY the BEST EVIDENCE ever shown to the American Public... A LEGITIMATE COURT could not have drawn out the Actual FACTS more clearly.

This is sad, because the Court should have shown these FACTS to THE PEOPLE years ago.

Combine Larkin Rose with Aaron Russo and Joe Banister, and You witness a Story that Rings so TRUE, One simply cannot Deny it any more.

if you CAN STILL DENY the TRUTH... Add in a few former Jurors on tax cases, more former IRS Employees/Agents, and a few TAX CASE DEFENDANTS who were not allowed to present or see any evidence.

Then ask Yourself this:

If the Defendant is not able to put on a defense by (Presenting evidence to the Jury)... And the Prosecution shows NO EVIDENCE to the Jury OR the Defendant either... Then how in the hell was the Defendant Convicted and Sentenced in the first place?!

No Statute was shown or proven to be broken!

How would the Judiciary Branch like it if Citizens could Randomly point our fingers at them, and have them Convicted, simply by the power of our pointed finger?
That is what they are doing to us today... And We should not allow it.
It is us who should be able to have them investigated, interrogated, and held accountable to us, for their actions... If unjust, against THE PEOPLE they have Sworn to Serve.

Educate Educate Educate!

Are your Children going to be MICRO-CHIPPED SLAVES BY 2012?

Will They have any CONSTITIONAL RIGHTS at all when We are gone?

Or will the Constitution and the Bill of Rights be Gone with Us?

What will the Federal Government, The New North American Union and the ICC do with our Children?

I ask you... I Humbly beg you... Educate yourselves, and anyone who will hear you. Arm Yourself and Others with the TRUTH... And in doing so, Give thanks to Patriots like Aaron Russo, Larkin Rose and Ed and Elaine Brown.

Thanks for your Time...

Here is a link to a google video about the Impending US Adoption of the UN's ICC.

I hate to be the person to bear more bad news... But knowledge is the Weapon of choice for todays U.S. citizen, and must be Brandished by all. here it is.

Injustice For All - The International Criminal Court (ICC)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=637408748875597510&q=injustice
JBS
24 min 38 sec - Apr 25, 2006
www.jbs.org

The government just doesn't follow the laws. Don't change the system, just follow it and apply it correctly.

We need to start over and after looking at the different options, I think the FAIR TAX is the best way to go for the country. It is a well thought out plan that will stop penalizing people in our country for earning money. Let's get together and get the FAIR TAX passed.

You have one long-winded heartbeat there, sheesh! Nevertheless, I read it, had some serious problems with it.
Most fundamentally: Income tax is a tax on productivity, consumption tax is a tax on expenditure.
Secondarily: many quotes of Boortz were, if you go back to the originals, given without ellipses or other indication that the whole thing was not quoted. The meaning was altered and they were presented as complete and accurate quotes.
Third: I might be wrong, twice over, but I hear your guy advocating anarchy, and I don't believe anarchy can sustain. We have either to accede in necessity of numbers of rules, and limit those when we're able, or thugs will overrun the place and we'll want more gov'ment, Heaven help us!

If you care to, you may contact me through JRPottery.com

I can cure that in a heartbeat.

Mark Yannone

Well, since "... all men are created equal.", then wouldn't it stand to reason that for fairness purposes, taxes should be levied on a "per-capita" basis?

No more tinkering with the current tax code leaving the congress with their social engineering powers. Everyone who sets foot on American soil should pay taxes except for the poor, and pay them fairly. Only the FAIRTAX plan will do this. We must stop tax evasion and get rid of the IRS. Log onto www.fairtax.org and see the tax system we should have,

Earlier post: "The current system needs to be trashed and start fresh with the FairTax."

If you have a wart removed from your face, would you ask the surgeon to put a mole in its place?

Not a single penny of the federal income tax revenues goes to fund any of the services people expect from government (See the 1984 Grace Commission report to President Reagan). Where does the money go? About a third goes to operated the IRS and its lavish lifestyle, about a third of it goes unaccounted for by the IRS, and the rest allegedly goes to the Federal Reserve as payment toward the interest on the imaginary "National Debt."

What funds the services we get from government? The other two thousand taxes government collects on everything that moves, everything that doesn't move, everything that speaks, everything that remains silent, everything that gets wet when it rains, and everything that doesn't.

Can you think of anything that the federal government doesn't tax?

Federal excise taxes tax jewelry, tires, batteries, etc. Import taxes apply to everything coming into this country (which is what, 90% of what we consume?). All alcohol, tobacco, firearms, pharmaceuticals, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, jet fuel, etc., are taxed by the federal government.

Radio and TV stations pay the federal government for the use of the airwaves, plus all sorts of licensing fees. Airlines pay the federal governmen to fly in U.S. airspace. We all pay federal taxes on our phone usage.

The list is endless. The income tax represents only pennies of what the federal government collects from us in other venues.
There is no need to "replace" a useless tax with another useless tax. Just get rid of it, period.

Our fore Fathers left Europe because of oppressive taxation and religious persecution. WE have not learned from our past. WE are reliving it.
A Country that taxes the productivity of it's citizens. Are stealing the fruits of ones labor. No government has the right to steal ones property. Who is John Galt?

The current system needs to be trashed and start fresh with the FairTax. Of course, we need to abolish the 16th amendment at the same time.

It's not for everyone!

It's just for US citizens with a 14th amendment registration #! Are you one? j
Just flash your SS# proudly, idiot!

It is NOT for citizens of the united States of America!

What's the difference? Ask your attourney -- Ha ha ha!!
~Hal Warth, sui juris, non assumpsit

The Tax code IS fair and constitutional as it is written. I have read it! The application of the law however, is grossly unconstitutional. Why is private property (i.e., your money that is lawfully earned and that you are constitutionally entitled to) stolen by the government with the help of banks and business owners, without due process? You must go to court to prove you are innocent of breaking the law to get your property returned, if ever. Violation of Amendment 5. It is MY money, not the government's. They are not entitled to one penny of it. Some may say the 16th Amendment gave authority to Congress to tax the earnings of ordinary Americans. WRONG! The Supreme Court has ruled that the 16th amendment did not confer any new powers of taxation to Congress. At last review, the decision is still in effect and has not been reversed. Even if it did, the amendment would be unconstitutional because the Constitution does not grant any authority or power to Congress to make changes to the fundamental document. If it did, then why is it not listed as one of the powers under Article I section 8? Congress may only make amendments that are not repugnant to the Constitution. They can, however, make amendments that restrict their own authorities and powers, but not those of the people. The only constitutional way for Congress to tax Americans directly, is through apportionment, that is, everybody pays an equal amount of dollars, not an arbitrary percentage based on some ambiguously devised scale. That is one of the purposes of the census. In other words, everybody shall pay one dollar (the amount is irrelevant in this example, only the amount per person shall be equal), no matter how much money they earned! Does anybody realize what a wretched undertaking that would be? That is why it was written that way, to make it as miserable as possible for the government to meddle in the affairs of the people whom they serve! What comes out of the IRS' mouth is bilge. Only the WRITTEN law applies, not what some goon SAYS is law. Nothing the IRS says or does, none of their brochures, documents or requests for audits carry any legal weight whatsoever absent a COURT ORDER and backed by a cite of the law in question!